Recently I had the opportunity to speak with Gabby Campbell of That Anthro podcast about business anthropology, my TEDx Talk Are DNA Tests Safe?, and my journey into anthropology.

The Show Notes

Welcome Matt Artz, a business anthropologist, podcaster, founder of 2 anthropology consulting companies, and an overall fascinating guest. We dive into the field of user experience, his experience doing a Tedx talk, the importance of publicly disseminating our work as anthropologists, and his new podcasts he is launching this January. We also discuss his masters thesis, and subject of his Tedx talk, the safety and lessons learned for consumers regarding at home DNA tests. 

Transcript

Please note this transcript is an automated transcription and may have some errors.

Gabby Campbell: [00:00:00] So people always ask me how I got that answer. Podcasts started so fast and for free. Well, the answer is simple. Anchor anchor is a free, easy to use plot form that allows you to create and distribute your very own podcast all in one place. Right? It has literally everything you need create a new podcast today, right from your home.

[00:00:24] I know I love that they have a very easy to use mobile app where I can publish or edit an episode on the, go from my phone. So download the free anchor app or go to anchor.fm. To get started today. Once again, that’s anchor Datta, Fenton. Welcome to that anther podcast. The podcast dedicated to anthropology together each week, we will be learning from the experts and researchers that are researching our past and today’s problems.

[00:00:57] My name is Gabriela Campbell, and I’ll be interviewing a new guest each week. To bring to you the latest and greatest and anthropology based right here out of Santa Barbara. Join me for weekly episodes, whether you’re an anthropology buff or looking to learn something new. Welcome to that anthro podcast.

[00:01:21] Hi, welcome back to this week’s episode of that answer podcast. If you’re new here, my name is Gabby Campbell and I’m a third year undergraduate anthropology major at UC Santa Barbara. And every week I interview people on my podcast. So welcome if you’re a returning listener. Welcome. Thank you for supporting the podcast.

[00:01:46] Today, we have a very exciting guest, definitely something different than, um, content I’ve produced in the past, but I’m really excited about it because that anthro podcast was truly founded to talk about anthropology. And that means any type of anthropology. So in this case this week, we have Matt arts.

[00:02:07] Who’s a business anthropologist on the podcast to talk to us about all things, business anthropology, some of the businesses that he has founded. He is the founder and career coach at anthro two UX. He is the founder and principal researcher at asthma labs. And is also the head of product and experience at cloud shadow consulting.

[00:02:33] He also has had the honor to do a Ted X talk. So I’m really excited for you guys to listen to him talk today. He definitely has some interesting information about DNA tests, about user experience. I hope you’ll enjoy, but before we hop into the episode, I wanted to let you guys know about, um, a book that I read over.

[00:02:56] This Christmas vacation, I’m on Christmas break from school right now, which has been very good to reset. Um, so it is unnatural exposure by Patricia Cornwell. I have recommended Patricia Cornwell books before I will do it again because she is an amazing writer. I could not put this book down, like no joke.

[00:03:19] I. Had to stop myself. It’s great. It has a great storyline, lots of friends and the coroner stuff like mixed in there, but I would definitely recommend it, especially if you’re bored and you want a thriller, like mystery, forensic novel to like, keep you interested. I know I sometimes can get bored reading books could not put this down and down.

[00:03:42] And the last thing I wanted to say before we hop into the podcast is that there will be no new episode. Next week. I am taking the first week of classes off from the podcast so that I can get back into the groove. I’m also starting work again anyway. Um, So there will be no episode on January 6th, but I will be back with a brand new episode on January 13th.

[00:04:06] So without further ado, let’s hear from that art.

[00:04:16] Hi, not welcome to that. Andrew podcasts and super excited to have you here to talk with me today, especially because your area of study and work is something that I am completely unversed in. And I think that’ll actually pretty be pretty cool for our listeners because hopefully, um, we will be able to kind of break down your work and what you’re doing in the anthropological community in a digestible way for our listeners.

[00:04:38] So, um, you have a bit of an untraditional background when it comes to anthropology. And in fact, you hold a BS in biotechnology and an MBA in finance and investment management information. So I think a good place to start is what ended up inspiring you after getting those degrees to go back and get a master’s of science in applied anthropology, and then begin the work you do now as a business anthropologist.

[00:05:02] Sure.

[00:05:03] Matt Artz: [00:05:03] Yeah. Well, thanks first off know for having me Gabby. Nice to be here. I’m glad that you started this. Uh, I think the more podcasts we have out there on anthropology, the better and in general, right? It’s a great way to learn. Great way to connect with people. So thanks. Appreciate it. Um, so yeah, you know, my background’s a little bit different because I didn’t start in anthropology.

[00:05:22] I came back to anthropology later and. The reason I did that was I was working in tech. I’ve pretty much worked in tech my whole life in one form of another, since late high school. And I was realizing, and about the time that the iPhone had come out, that the products that we were building at the time that weren’t very effective.

[00:05:41] They, you know, they looked aesthetically pleasing. They, you know, they checked off all those kinds of boxes, but they weren’t working great in terms of having a return on investment. So I was, you know, Looking around and trying to figure out what could I do. And research was an obvious thing to sort of plug into this.

[00:05:59] Like as a, as a process, we didn’t have a research component in what I was doing at that point. So when I realized that there was really a tech sector, that was my interest going down that path, I eventually landed on anthropology and there’s a slight backstory to that because I had already. Um, no, I never took a anthropology course as an undergrad.

[00:06:20] I had first come across anthropology when I was down in Nicaragua doing some primary research and a primatologist I was studying under. And I did this when I was at my biotech program. So the primatologists I was studying under was looking at the books that I brought with me on the trip and asked me, you know, you’re studying anthropology and I wasn’t and we got talking and you know, it, it sort of clicked.

[00:06:36] So ever since then, I actually had an interest in studying anthropology. But then once I realized that there is a concept of business anthropology and design anthropology, and you know, whether those terms are. Whether one is nested on the other, or not as something that’s debated, you know, in the space.

[00:06:52] But once I realized that, like there’s people who are applying anthropological, you know, this, this body of knowledge and the skills to this space that I was in it and sort of really clicked for me and made me want to go down that path. And then I enrolled in the university of North Texas program, which is an applied program that particularly focuses on, I mean, you could do like medical anthropology, you could do a number of things, but I focused on business tech and design.

[00:07:14] Gabby Campbell: [00:07:14] That’s interesting. So how did your, um, how did you kind of formulate your thesis?

[00:07:19] Matt Artz: [00:07:19] So my thesis was so well, uh, being in a pride and applied program, right. You need to go out there and do something for a customer, ultimately that will mimic a real world. Business project. And so I worked with a consumer genetics platform and what I was doing was looking at that platform from a product management and user experience perspective.

[00:07:46] And. Yeah today, that’s the field that I work in. So I’m the head of product and experience. So basically I’m in charge of researching, designing, and leading the process to build software applications. And so that’s how it all relates. And so my applied project was really just that it was me doing the kind of work.

[00:08:04] In fact, I was already doing while I was in graduate school. Um, but applying it for the sake of this and for this project. And now. What does that really look like? Basically means that, you know, you’re going to go out, you’re going to conduct research with first stakeholders to learn kind of like the needs of the organization.

[00:08:20] Then of course, with users non-users and try to come up with a number of recommendations that will help to improve that product ultimately, and, you know, set a vision for it, a product vision, and product strategy, and, you know, the end goal of that in the case of. A business context is of course that they in the business wants to get something out of it, you know, which is customers, revenue, so on and so forth.

[00:08:42] But as anthropologists, you know, we are also interested in making sure, you know, things are. Uh, you know, appropriately sort of taking care of customers. So while I made product recommendations in my thesis portion of my thesis was also focused on making like, sort of ethical recommendations of how this product should be built so that, you know, you’re not taking advantage of, of any potential customers.

[00:09:03] And not that that my client was however, you know, that happens in the consumer genetic industry and, um, and in many industries. Right. So, um, It’s it’s yes, we work in business or like my project was in business and I work in business, but it’s also an opportunity, I think, for anthropologist, um, to contribute, to making sure that we’re building things the right way, which is a really unique place to be.

[00:09:27] Gabby Campbell: [00:09:27] Yeah, that’s really interesting to hear kind of the role of ethics in, um, that application. I mean, you know, lots of times we hear about ethics of cultural anthropologists going into a community or, um, ethics of repatriating remains, et cetera, but it’s, it’s really interesting to kind of hear how that does play into the consumer experience.

[00:09:45] Um, so how do you feel like your experiences from other areas of study have kind of transferred over into your work now? And does it maybe make you approach projects or challenges in new ways?

[00:09:56] Matt Artz: [00:09:56] Or, yeah, so it’s a great question. So I have almost always tried to stack my experiences. Um, and, uh, so my original, right, as in computer information systems and that program that I chose was is, was in a business.

[00:10:14] Uh, program ultimately. So I was focused on computer information systems, but it was within a business department because I was always interested in really managing technology more than say being, uh, being a software engineer or even being like a network engineer, whatever it may be. I was always much more interested in how do we apply technology within businesses within society and how do we match it?

[00:10:36] So I did that first. And then when I was in that program, this biotech program happened to pop up in my, in my school. And I added that on as a second major, I was interested in extras. I was interested in science. And so I figured it’d be a great place to apply technology. Like within that sector, I actually never directly went into working in the health sector.

[00:10:54] Life happened and, you know, one thing after another, but I maintain that interest in I’ll. I’ll connect it back to that in just a second. But so what I did kind of do. Though I wasn’t directly working for a comp corporation. I. When I was in my undergraduate, the end of my undergraduate program, I entered a business competition because I took my senior, uh, research, which was, uh, in biotech, which was to separate DNA.

[00:11:22] So gel, electrophoresis. Right. So I basically cut the time in half that takes to run it. The reason I did that was I was. Sort of sick of waiting around in our labs, wasting an hour while in jail was while the process was running. So I basically came up with a process to cut the time in half. I then spun that in to a business competition.

[00:11:40] Please. Second, that business competition started a company and filed a pending patent on it. I ended up dropping that patent and just sort of taking the rest of the resources and then funding, essentially my tech company that I started after that. And then I, and I did that because it was kind of clear to me that I wasn’t going to compete with like, Fisher scientific and Eric and those kinds of companies writer.

[00:12:00] So, um, so I spun that into this tech company and that’s what sort of has led me down this path now, fast forward. And as I came out of my anthropology degree, I essentially used all of that knowledge previously to weave it back into my project. So I was studying consumer genetics. And so, you know, that then became, you know, the, the, the technology piece, the biotechnology piece all naturally lent itself to that.

[00:12:27] But also, you know, to, to the graduate degrees that you’re asked about or mentioned in the beginning. So I think all of this connects because, you know, I’m working in tech, so all of that that’s useful. The biotech piece connects because scientific method is always going to help us solve problems in an interesting way.

[00:12:42] And then the finance piece is. Relevant because no matter what you’re doing business, you know, it’s all comes down to revenue older, you know, to finances ultimately. And so having an understanding of, you know, just general sort of corporate finance is very, very useful. And I also had studied management information systems at the graduate level, which was sort of an extension of the undergrad C a computer information systems program.

[00:13:04] So all of that obviously relates. So to me, I’ve tried to tie it all together into a social, like a sort of socially conscious. Yeah, business approach to building products and services today.

[00:13:17] Gabby Campbell: [00:13:17] It’s very interesting. So you founded two consulting companies. And, um, the first one is called anther to UX. So I was hoping you could explain to both me and the listeners, what UX is and then what your consulting company strives to accomplish.

[00:13:35] Because I’m going to be honest, even in my research, I wasn’t fully understanding what the user is kind of what the work you do in user experience is, but I’m super glad that, you know, I get to talk to you live and you can explain it to me.

[00:13:47] Matt Artz: [00:13:47] Yeah. So, so anthro to UX is a, essentially a career coaching service.

[00:13:51] That’s trying to, uh, that’s helping anthropologists go from academia into UX, which is user experience. The reason for starting that is because people reach out to me on LinkedIn all the time asking, you know, how can I do this? Right? How, you know, adding tips, you know, what, how, what should my resume look like?

[00:14:07] What should a portfolio look like? Just, you know, for informational interviews. So, you know, I spent up like a. So small, just sort of side hustle type business, just to help people out at an affordable rate, you know, and just to kind of help them get there and cover some costs of doing it. And, um, Yeah, what UX is.

[00:14:26] So user experience is the discipline that is in tech today that is more or less in charge of researching and designing the digital products. So the goal is, you know, to, to sort of define it with it, with its own name, right. Is to create better experiences. And that’s like a little bit of making sure that, you know, the product has utility.

[00:14:46] You making sure that it’s, you know, or that it’s usable, you might say. And basically kind of combining those aspects to ideally produce something that is. Yeah. Some people say delightful almost. Right. So maybe if you use, you know, like Headspace the meditation app, or if you view okay. So, you know, so if you view something like that, you know, it’s fun, right?

[00:15:10] Yeah. There’s there’s moments that make you smile. And so that’s a very nice user experience as opposed to, um, you know, any number of products that you can’t carry out, the task that you’re trying to do and find it frustrating. Right. So. Well, our goal is to conduct research with people which in the tech industry is called users, which obviously there’s some debate around, right.

[00:15:35] That’s not obviously a very good way to think about other people. Um, but so we conduct research with people to understand their needs, their wants, and then we reframe that into two product recommendations. Did which leads to designs, which basically leads to an engineering team building or implementing those designs into your shift, the product.

[00:15:58] Gabby Campbell: [00:15:58] Oh, that’s, that’s so interesting. That’s definitely, um, a new. Area to me and a new area of a business. So on the same thread, you also founded asthma labs, which is a business anthropology consulting company. And so how does that differ from your work with anther

[00:16:16] Matt Artz: [00:16:16] to you? So as MECLABS is, um, whereas whereas anthro to UX has me coaching.

[00:16:23] Typically students are early to mid career anthropologists to get into user experience. As myth labs is very much more about me doing that work for organizations. And so I’m taking all of my UX product management strategy experience and bundling it up and offering those services to other organizations that need them.

[00:16:47] So, you know, from. You know, working with health products, to working with language schools, you know, I touch a number of things, but basically it’s me providing business services to help other organizations innovate products and services.

[00:17:01] Gabby Campbell: [00:17:01] Great. Um, and then something that I’m really excited to talk to you about is your Ted talk, because I think, you know, Ted talks have becomes this.

[00:17:10] In the past, what like 20 years, this real iconic and prestigious way to publicly disseminate and present research. So I was curious if that was kind of a goal for you or was it something that kind of just did the opportunity presented itself to do that Ted talk?

[00:17:27] Matt Artz: [00:17:27] So to be Frank, you know, I’ve watched Ted talks for a very.

[00:17:31] Long time at this point, I remember in the very early days of like Netflix actually getting them like on DVD and like being very interested in, so I have liked Ted and followed Ted for quite some time and had always wanted, you know, have always thought about doing it. But of course I did like have researched, present, you know, I didn’t feel I had anything compelling and maybe I did, maybe I didn’t, but at the time I didn’t feel that way.

[00:17:56] And so when. Um, this opportunity popped up. You know, I, I viewed it as, as a way to sort of expand on my thesis work because one of the other things of anthropology that I’m interested in is like, maybe you might call it public anthropology and you know, very much like what you’re doing with the podcast, you know, is trying to get the message out there to a wider audience.

[00:18:22] And so, um, You know, early on in the history of us anthropology, you know, Margaret Mead and, you know, a number of others were fantastic at it, but that seemed to kind of fall by the wayside, you know, a bit. And, you know, I think like podcasts like this and other initiatives are bringing that back, but we. I sort of seem, in my opinion, have like a branding issue with, you know, anthropology, right?

[00:18:48] People don’t like always respect anthropologists, maybe as much as we would like them to, or as much as you think they should, as opposed to psychologists or behavioral economics or economists. Right. And they, you know, we don’t have like quite the sexy appeal that some of these other industries do, some of these other professions do.

[00:19:05] And so I’m very much interested in sort of getting the message out there. So for me, the Ted talk was w. One, a way to get out a message about consumer genetics that I thought was important, which was like the ethical considerations, which we can talk about if you’re interested. But also it was a means of participating in a, more of a public anthropology kind of approach.

[00:19:24] And I think Ted’s an excellent way to do that. I know there’s some people who think that Ted is kind of like a watered down or it’s too scripted in a way. And it’s, you know, there’s a negative. Some people have a negative view of it. But to me, you know, when you just look at how many people watch Ted talks, you know, it’s an, a fantastic way to not only spread your research, but also, you know, your profession and the value of anthropology.

[00:19:48] Yeah,

[00:19:48] Gabby Campbell: [00:19:48] it’s a great tool. And it’s a great platform that so many have been able. I think it’s even just part of being, being a part of the whole idea of that you did a Ted talk and you’re part of that community. And, you know, it’s really fascinating and, um, important to be able to, like you say, Cross that bridge too, from the science or the business into the public and getting it into the public eye.

[00:20:12] Because I know like, even like I did a presentation on anthropology at my old middle school and I had to, you know, the first thing I had to clarify was no, no, I don’t work with dinosaur bones because yeah, I get that one a lot. It’s just like making, you know, there are, and I do understand because there are so many niches within anthropology and, you know, that’s what I like to explore in the podcast is all of the different things under the giant umbrella that is anthropology, but, uh, you know, that Ted talk and I will make sure to have it linked in the description for our listeners.

[00:20:43] And, um, so yeah, I want to dive into the subject matter of that, which was consumer genetics and some of the big issues surrounding DNA tests, like ancestry.com or 23 million know those are consumer ones that you buy. So why don’t you kind of break down? Uh, so those main points, but we’ll also, again, if anyone wants to check out the full Ted talk, it’ll be linked.

[00:21:04] Matt Artz: [00:21:04] Yeah. Well, yeah, thanks for that. And um, you know, one thing I should point out. Yeah. We, we oftentimes casually. Yeah. You say Ted, but of course I was on the TEDx stage, not Ted. Yeah. Not the big Ted, um, which I just think is, uh, you know, fair to represent it that way. Um, you know, being on the biggest stage of Ted would be amazing.

[00:21:23] Um, You know, maybe a dream, you know, maybe something for, yeah. Um, but so I, you know, I participated in TEDx Scranton and, uh, TEDx, Scranton women is actually just coming up or was maybe just a week ago or so, or is around this time, which would have some really nice speakers that are going to be at, but none the less.

[00:21:41] So the talk was going an extension of my, my UNT thesis research. Um, but not on. Not so much like anything product management or user experience related. It was really the lessons learned from that, that I thought consumers needed to know. And, you know, a lot of that I made, made, uh, made present in the thesis as well, but nobody’s going to read the thesis.

[00:22:04] That’s locked up in a library. Right. So let’s be honest about it. So, um, the, I talked about a couple points, the first point, mainly being that. By and large, the people I spoke with lacked genetic literacy, meaning to say that most people don’t really understand how DNA tests work, like how the science works.

[00:22:25] They, you know, they don’t have a good grasp of things that they should be cautious of. You know, what ethical concerns might exist with data concerns, which obviously is related ethical concerns. But like they don’t, most people don’t really have a firm understanding of that. You know, I’m talking in the people I spoke with, we’re talking like 90%, you know, really I would.

[00:22:44] Just make it a sort of casual number were roughly like, they were really not in the know on things that I would think they want to be in the know about. And so that’s sort of like the foundation, I would say. And then within, with, you know, building on top of that foundation, you have this environment where companies who are very skilled at advertising or in many ways, You know, putting out these ads that are preying on emotion, right?

[00:23:12] You’re going to find server your loss history, you know, find your parents, whatever may be. And that’s very, you know, finding your, maybe finding a parent or a sibling or something is, can happen. That’s a very real thing that those tests can help you with. And I’m not trying to downplay that all those, you know, could be a nice outcome, but it’s not a nice outcome for everybody, which is also worth mentioning, but there’s.

[00:23:32] Yeah. So in the genealogy space, maybe it’s a little bit more of a level playing field, even though people still don’t fully understand what they’re opting into, but at least like, you know, you really can find relatives and it’s kind of, it is effective at that, but in the health space, it becomes another thing completely.

[00:23:48] So unless it’s really a single gene disorder, um, or conditioner trait or whatever it may be, they’re not that effective yet. These tests. Right. So, you know, if you just think of like some of the problems, the sample size is small, you know, the sample size is not very diverse. Then you have, you know, the, the challenge of picking out which scientific literature may be accurate or not figuring out how are you going to sort of look at that literature translated into a tech product that weights, that literature in such a way where you’re then trying to make like a probabilistic recommendation to somebody appreciating we haven’t discovered like all the genes involved with most conditions, even as something as simple as like, you know, Yeah, hair color say, or, you know, something like that.

[00:24:38] And as you get into, you know, things like which foods should you be eating, you know, or what exercise you should be doing or to diseases. Um, you know, it becomes very much. Um, something that might be a data point that you want to consider, but I wouldn’t base my life on at this point in time, nonetheless, you have the advertising, that’s, you know, that’s sort of drawing people in getting them to use these tests, helping them to think that this is sort of going to solve problems for them.

[00:25:08] And I found that in my research, so many people did think that this was going to sort of be like, you know, really provide answers for them and they take these tests. Oftentimes, um, you know, some are just over 50% of people in my research. Don’t read the. The terms and conditions, essentially the contract that you’re opting into, which means they’re not really being provided informed consent.

[00:25:33] I mean, they have the opportunity to read all of that, but just given the way the tech products are designed, probably know it yourself, you just click. I agree. Right. So they’re going in without really a good informed consent process. Even if you make the argument that they have the option to read all of that.

[00:25:47] Yes they do. But it’s like jargon, right? It’s covered science and it’s legal jargon. So again, people just. Aren’t really going to grasp it. And then on the backside, you have all these questions about like, what is happening with the data. So, you know, wall, the big platforms are making you opt into the research again, like, you know, you can design things in tech where opting in sort of happens very.

[00:26:11] Fluidly people don’t even realize it depending on how you design the interface, but then you also have people who are taking their data and uploading it to other tools such as like a tool like gen match, which is the tool that was used to find the golden state serial killer, where, you know, at this point in time, the vast majority of people of European descent in the States can be identified.

[00:26:34] Just because of how many people have already uploaded their data. And so that basically means that even if you don’t take a test, if you’re of European descent in the United States, your privacy is already gone in many ways. Right. You can sort of be pieced together. Um, you know, with people who are skilled researchers using a tool like that.

[00:26:52] And so there’s a lot of issues here about, you know, who owns that data related to that point, like who owns the data? How should that data be used? Um, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of stuff to figure out. Basically a lot of the way that the service and services are pitched is you give us your data today and we’re going to keep, continue to give you insights, you know, but what, what are you giving up now for really not much utility.

[00:27:16] That’s kind of the question that I’m getting at in that talk and there’s people who are taking those. Yeah, the quote unquote results that they’re getting today, and they’re making relatively rash decisions. I referenced a family who, you know, family of women who told they had breast cancer, only two, you know, two of them had double mastectomies only to learn later that the gene was reclassified and they may not have actually been as much risk as they thought.

[00:27:38] Right. And you can make the argument of like, you know, what’s the role of a physician in that or a genetic counselor in that shorter. Those are good arguments, but also if the data change, right, if we’re now longer saying that that, that they were at risk, but now they’re not based on the scientific literature.

[00:27:52] Well, in that case, even though the physician or the genetic counselor themselves likely would have. You know, just made the, they made the right recommendation at the time, but it turned out to not be true. So, you know, there’s just a lot of stuff happening in that space that people need to be aware of and be cautious about that.

[00:28:08] To say, you don’t want to do one, but you just need to know what you’re opting into.

[00:28:13] Gabby Campbell: [00:28:13] Definitely an understanding that, you know, it is giving up a part of your privacy. No different than. Um, giving out, you know, personal information because it is it’s your personal genetic information that literally makes you who you are, which just the whole idea.

[00:28:28] I really, you know, I hope to be able to, as I’ve, I’m advancing through my studies, learning about some of the forensic techniques that, you know, the use of DNA, the use of bite Mark analysis that aren’t fully. Like we don’t understand enough about to be able to have them be so accurate, especially like in the case of forensic application.

[00:28:49] And I hope to be able to do some more of my own research on how we can like formalize those processes, um, in the forensic application. Um, and then, so one of the last things that I wanted to ask you was, um, what is some advice that you would give to someone trying to pursue a similar career or path as you?

[00:29:13] Cause I think in general, it’s always really interesting to get advice from people. I know it’s like one of my favorite things about the podcast. It’s just little nuggets of inspiration or, um, ideas that can kind of help our listeners, uh, You know, navigate through the many areas and sub-disciplines of anthropology.

[00:29:32] Matt Artz: [00:29:32] Sure. So I won’t try to tackle them like all of the disciplines, but as you asked about mine, um, you know, the big thing is, is if you want to work in the business space, That probably the big, the best thing you can do is try to get projects under your belt, uh, and real world projects. So, you know, if internships, right, if you’re an undergrad or grad, whatever, it may be, do internships that will night will neatly align with what you want to do in the future.

[00:30:04] You know, like if you want to work in technology, Didn’t do an internship in that. Don’t just take anything and really try to get projects that you can show in a portfolio, because if you want to work sort of in business, particularly in like user experience, portfolio is always going to be helpful. It’s possible.

[00:30:22] You could maybe. Find a way into the first job without it, but you’re going to have to talk about like how you do this work. And so you’re going to having a portfolio is, can help you get there. The next thing is networking and doing like informational interviews, like learn about the space, right? So just reach out to people on LinkedIn, try to set up quick call, learn about, you know, their role and then related to networking is know different groups.

[00:30:46] So yeah, people can check out business anthro.com. Which is the business anthropology community. Uh, it’s sort of just loosely affiliated. It’s not like a society that’s connected to the AAA or anything like that. It just sort of a group of us who were in this space, we’re trying to mentor others and put on projects and put on like programming.

[00:31:04] So last night we had a virtual meetup where you could hear from, you know, some great practitioners in the field. So there’s that there’s Epic people, um, you know, Epic people.org or, you know, that Epic is. Is a wonderful organization for people interested in working in tech and then there’s, you know, you can of course go to at SFA there’s some business stuff, but not as much at, um, you know, other communities there’s a little bit less so valuable, but less so, so I would point to those two as the big one and then listen to podcasts, but there’s a lot of podcasts in the space.

[00:31:36] Um, I’m sure you’ll have many guests over time who might speak about some of this and, uh, Yeah, listen to podcasts outside of anthropology, some business tech podcasts develop some skills in there. You know, there’s always certifications on Coursera, but also really like, you know, try it out, upscale with some business tech design skills.

[00:31:56] They’re very critical. And I would say design for almost everybody, even if you’re not going into business, because at some point in time, you’re going to be working somewhere. Even if it’s a pay, you know, even if it’s academia and you’re putting together a paper and if you can visually communicate your ideas, it will go a long way.

[00:32:10] Gabby Campbell: [00:32:10] That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the podcast today and I’ll make sure to have everything linked below. So you all can, our listeners can check out Matt’s info and, uh, his various companies. And, uh, do you, I was reading in your LinkedIn, do you guest hosts for this anthro life?

[00:32:28] Matt Artz: [00:32:28] I have probably eight or so times maybe seven or so times I haven’t in a while, but yeah, for a period of time.

[00:32:35] Yeah, I was doing that and I’m actually starting to, in fact, I recorded the first today, I’m starting an Anthro to UX podcast, really focused on helping, you know, again, like sort of helping people get into that space. And it’s bringing on practitioners who have. Made that journey. Like I have to hear from them in their own words, how they did it, the struggles they had.

[00:32:55] And so the first one becoming out either the first or second Monday in January, I got to pick exactly what you know, which date, but it would be Rachel Fleming. Who’s wonderful. She’s doing some great pieces on it. It would be really helpful. And then a second one that I’m firing up in just about a week is Anthropology in Business.

[00:33:10] And it’s going to be a little bit. Um, probably the audience on that one is maybe slightly more mature than like say students or early career anthropologists who, and it will be broader. It’ll be organizational anthropology as much as UX and as much as people were working in branding or working with AI emphasis, so on and so forth.

[00:33:27] So it’d be a little bit broader. Um, but yeah, those I think will be a good resource for others as well.

[00:33:34] Gabby Campbell: [00:33:34] Definitely. I’m really happy to hear that those will be starting up and congratulations. I’m sure they’ll have immense

[00:33:39] Matt Artz: [00:33:39] success. Thanks. Appreciate it. So Thanksgiving, it was a pleasure.

Please note this transcript is an automated transcription and may have some errors.