In this episode of the Anthropology in Business podcast, Chris Diming speaks with Matt Artz about his career as a business anthropologist. The conversation covers his journey into anthropology through political science, his interest in design anthropology and UX, and his current work as a workplace anthropologist.
About Chris Diming
Chris Diming is a design anthropologist with a passion for the built environment. A Virginia native, his initial education and experience were in political science and activism. In 2017, he obtained a Ph.D. in Social Anthropology from Durham University in the United Kingdom. Focusing on public space and urban anthropology, his doctoral research explored how people form, negotiate and mobilize inter-personal relationships in Kosovo. After graduating, he held an applied research role with a property technology start-up aiming to build trust between neighbors in cities. Having recently returned to the United States, he applies anthropological methods to reimagining workplaces.
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Please note this transcript is an automated transcription and may have some errors.
Matt Artz: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Anthropology in Business podcast where you’ll learn about the many ways anthropology is applied in business and why business anthropology is one of the most effective lenses for making sense of organizations and consumers through conversations with leading anthropologists, working in advertising, marketing, consumer behavior.
[00:00:22] Organizational culture, user experience, and many other roles you’ll learn firsthand what it means to do business anthropology and how the work differs from academic edge apology. We will discuss issues like the pace and depth of research in business, our visibility and influence as practitioners in what we can do to build our brand.
[00:00:44] We will also focus on the value impact of our research and business so that we can help businesses. As leaders understand why they should be hiring anthropologists. I’m your host, Matt. Artz a business anthropologist, specializing in design anthropology, and working at the intersection of product management, user experience and business strategy.
[00:01:05] Let’s get started. All right. Hi everyone. Welcome back. And, um, today I’m with Chris dimming, a design anthropologist and workplace strategists. So, uh, Chris, thanks for joining and, uh, to jump right into it, your mind, maybe telling us a little bit about, you know, your career or really your education through anthropology and into your current career and you know, what, what it means to be a workplace strategist.
[00:01:28] Chris Diming: [00:01:28] Sure. So, um, I’m originally from the Richmond, Virginia area. Um, thanks a lot for your time, Matt. I really appreciate it. So I’ll just go through, uh, where I started and then, uh, into anthropology and done what I’m. During right now. So I’m set I’m from the Richmond, Virginia area originally, but I actually ended up going to Durham university in the UK for a masters, then a, uh, a PhD, the PhD being an anthropology.
[00:01:59] So when I started out, I’d say I was very interested in grassroots, um, social relationships and also just grassroots politics due to my, having been a community organizer. And. It’s a little more organized here before I went to Durham. So after graduation from CNU and I did a degree in political science for about a year into 2012, I worked for a couple of political campaigns and done an environmental organization and the climate action area, um, that got me very interested in social relationships and how people form ties between each other within the communities.
[00:02:37] Although I didn’t really know what that meant. At the time, that’s just what I was interested in. And so, um, when I went to Durham in the UK, I went for a master’s in defense and development and diplomacy, and that was an extension I political science interest, because at that point I was clued into international relationship international relations and specifically conflict studies.
[00:03:01] Um, I developed more of an interest in the bottom-up approach to conflict studies had developed more of an interest in how, uh, people within communities, uh, engaged in reconciliation. And as a result of that master’s program, I became interested in anthropology, sorry, defected from political science as a result of that experience and what got me it, um, Really intrigued was culture, how culture emerges and how culture can be utilized and rhetoric performances to alter networks of interpersonal relationships.
[00:03:38] And so social networks and rhetoric and performance, these exciting new concepts. Um, I just been encountering them at that time. So about 2012, uh, during my masters. And, uh, I did. A field study in Kosovo for the masters, for my, um, class there. Uh, it was on NGOs and it was on the government in Kosovo and how those interact with the international community and the United nations.
[00:04:13] And, um, what got me very intrigued. There was. Looking more into actually, how does the community react to international do the international organizations and how on the grassroots level, how, um, what’s actually happening, what’s happening there versus the top-down, uh, narrative regarding the UN. And so with my PhD, I decided to go more depth into it.
[00:04:40] So I was looking at public space, how people form relationships within public spaces, how those relationships can be mobilized through rhetoric and how cultural concepts, um, emerged and then are mobilized through rhetoric too. Um, Spark and drive the formation of networks. That was very interesting to me.
[00:05:04] It, uh, I was there for a year in Kosovo from 2014 to 2015. And so I did a lot of my observations in, uh, public spaces like cafes and bars, but I also did observations in the streets and in squares. And so I ended up participating at, uh, joining a, a few protests as well as observing how people, um, Meet with in cafes.
[00:05:28] And what I learned was that the coffee was a signifier, uh, for relationships, but also an exchange of coffee was a way to spark and maintain relationships with other people. And this whole thing, to me, it was fascinating because. It was within the context of the built environment and it was within the context of culture and how’s culture emerge within the built environment.
[00:05:50] And so this sort of process and me getting immersed within a city, uh, during the field work and during the writing up here, it, it led to me being. Less interested in political mobilization and more interested in sociality and how people form relationships within urban settings. And so, um, during my writing out process and after I, um, I got the PhD, I was looking okay, so what am I going to do now?
[00:06:20] And being a former, um, activist, I was very clued into impact and wanted what I wanted, what I was going to do to actually have an effect on people’s lives. And I realized that. Academia for all, its um, fall for all its greatness. It didn’t really have that edge that I wanted to have. It didn’t really have that urgency that I wanted to have.
[00:06:44] And I wanted to be in more collaborative environments where instead of just you doing the. Research and publishing it and, and off it goes, you’re actually working with other people to design something and it make something better. So as a result of that process, I took on the applied anthropology label.
[00:07:03] This was in about 2018 and I started to explore two different routes. One hand I was looking at, uh, user experience research and design research because I was fascinated by how. Anthropologists are actually incorporated in the design process in collaborative relationships with designers and how applied anthropology is actually like a thing.
[00:07:27] So that was, that was very intriguing to me. And so to this day, I’m still very interested in UX research and in tech. Um, the other route was also in. More to do with the built environment. And I started to have a couple of really formative conversations and, um, one person suggested that because I did my research in public space, but I don’t, I look into the built environment.
[00:07:51] Why don’t I think about architecture? And I was like, Oh, well, well, that’s an interesting idea. As a cause of the first area of applied anthropology, I’d really encountered, was user experience, research and texts. And that was thinking about a new area. And, uh, she, um, Got me in touch with a workplace strategist at a commercial real estate company.
[00:08:14] And, um, that just blew my mind. I was just like, so why are these people in commercial real estate interested and in applied anthropology and what’s the what’s workplace strategy anyway. Um, and so I, uh, I started to dig into it more. And I found some formative papers on workplace strategy with workplace strategy, being the process where you’re aligned paper people and practices and tools with space, which, I mean, that sounds arrogance.
[00:08:42] Blogs is going away because if you’re thinking about people and workplaces, you’re thinking about the, um, offices that fit them. And you’re thinking about the context in terms of how are these. Um, Lyman’s happening and what kind of tools are people actually using and what can we do to make that better?
[00:08:59] And, uh, that was, again, that was very fascinating to me. Um, I, at that point I ended up working with a startup called javelin and with a, uh, Prop tech platform within it called Alec Neo. So I was, um, my sort of food school vacations were changing in this way. I was still in the UK when I was looking at applied anthropology, but I ended up moving to Hungary in a, in Budapest.
[00:09:23] So I was working remotely for javelin, which was a UK based startup, but, um, living in Budapest and collaborating with people in Russia and in the United States and, and, uh, And UK and sometimes in Dubai, various other places. And so I was kind of working remotely from Budapest at a point when I kind of, before I would say working from home was really a thing that most people knew.
[00:09:49] And, um, that was, uh, I mean, I think you’re talking about academia, which is a very, uh, By literally by the book sort of Orthodox interpretation of applied anthropology. Oh, sorry. Out of anthropology where you do ask sonography for at least a year, maybe two, and you spend about that time or more if you’re some people writing it up.
[00:10:10] Um, and then versus, uh, versus javelin where, what I was doing was I was leading the foundational research. And so Omneo. Was a platform that was designed to spark trust between neighbors and urban spaces, uh, residents. And, um, so. Our initial setting was London and you were looking at other places, but really, so Omnia was kind of a network to spark those relationships, but it was also, we’re looking at ways to incentivize those relationships through means like perhaps gamification.
[00:10:42] And so my role was really to do the. About the foundational research on trust, how people form trust, how, um, what interactions you go in sparking those relationships. And, um, how do people live in, how do people interact with each other within their neighborhoods? And so, in a way, I was looking at kind of drawing on this classic anthological, um, Explorations of neighborliness out of neighbor neighborhoods, but I was doing it in a startup context.
[00:11:11] And so I wasn’t able to spend like a year dereg background research or something. No, this was like, now you, um, you do some actual reader. Got it. Okay, good. Yep. But a couple of weeks there. Yeah. Good. Um, and then you immediately start to design and plan the, uh, research. And so at first, what we did was we did some, um, Street surveys in London.
[00:11:36] And there may a company that is with the wave of semi-structured interviews with residents in London on, uh, on how they interact with each other and how they live within the neighborhoods. And then we were, uh, we did more user experience research things where we’re thinking more about, um, the sort of a day in the life of people in the neighborhoods and really thinking more about, um, how can we actually design something that fits within their, within their lives.
[00:12:04] And so, um, this was, this was exciting to me because the, it was all leading into the process of creating a prototype. And, um, I mean, I think a way that I’ve described this transition is that you’re going from, um, I started this already going from academia into a, uh, Very flexible and very creative environment where the goal is not to do something to the most rigorous academic standard, but to do something where that actually has the end for designing a prototype.
[00:12:37] So all the timelines are sped up and you’re thinking about, okay, so how do we drive efficiency while not cutting corners in rigor? And I think what, um, what that did for me personally, was it opened up my eyes, um, to. The importance of, uh, not just impact, but, uh, delivering something in a way that’s actually actionable.
[00:13:01] And then, um, but doing it in a way where you’re not sacrificing what anthropology can bring. And then, um, meanwhile, while you were doing all of this, you’re. Trying to bring and take ownership of your approach as an anthropologist or your approach at that point, also easier as a user experience researcher, which is to, um, not just, uh, evaluate design hypotheses, but to actually explore and to make sure that the focus is on the person you’re actually designing for it.
[00:13:33] You’re not just, um, going off of what people think should happen. And, um, That was, yeah, that was a very formative experience for me on those levels. I ended up, um, leaving a javelin and Neo and, uh, December of 2019, and I returned to the U S in January of 2020 at the end of January, which was at a very, uh, I guess, precipitous time to return.
[00:14:01] So, um, I’ve been here in Virginia since, since January of, uh, of 2020. And, um, I would say it’s been an exciting year. I mean, to say the least at first, what I did was I embarked on an Orthodox job search, which was to think, okay, so this is what I can do. I can do qualitative research and mixed methods research.
[00:14:23] So this is how I can have, um, that ended up taking a day entirely new direction around the time of the, uh, the pandemic, because, um, With workplace, uh, strategy, user experience for your search, all of a sudden you had a bunch of people who can also do that. So the job market became absolutely glutted with a lot of really good qualitative researchers and, um, to think more about my niche and where I could actually fit, because I mean, there are a bunch of really good people are in the field, right?
[00:14:55] Like, um, even though you come from, um, You, you have an academic degree, they’re a bunch of people who are just as good as you, if not better. And so you have to really think about your niche and how you can fit in. And, um, what I gradually realized was it’s not enough to just say, Oh yeah, you know, I can help you with your, your qualitative research.
[00:15:15] No, you have to actually take ownership of your approach as an. Anthropologists and really what you bring and how in collaboration with others you work with, because it’s not just you, I mean, you’re taking ownership, but you’re doing it in a way that you’re bringing value to the teams that you work with.
[00:15:29] And so, um, that was a gradual process for me, at least I, um, I focused more on workplace strategy because with the pandemic. Many so-called knowledge workers were rejected from the built environment back into the home. And so you had working from home, taking place at a scale that had never actually happened before.
[00:15:55] And, uh, with working from home, you started to see these gradual shifts within the work. Play strategy, fill it in within, um, corporate real estate and design where you’re going from this debate, which is kind of like is the open office good or is the open office bad tomorrow? Okay. So what’s happening next because it’s kind of redundant, sorry about the open office.
[00:16:18] If everyone is working from home. Right. Um, and. Gradually this term emerged called hybrid working and hybrid working is still being defined. Now. No one really knows what it means yet, but we have very good idea of what it means and the way this kind of goes into my approach and what I’m doing now. So with hybrid working, you have this arrangement of spaces of, uh, physical spaces, a virtual spaces of tools.
[00:16:51] And so. The exciting thing for an anthropologist is that this means that you can think about individual companies and how to arrange all of these things to fit the people who are working there. So all of a sudden, I mean, hybrid working itself as a context oriented term, and that’s the exciting point right now.
[00:17:11] And so I realized that, and I started to plug myself into workplace strategy more than I had been before. So, um, I joined an organization called workplace evolutionaries, which if you’re a, an anthropologist and you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking about workplace strategy, definitely check out workplace evolutionaries.
[00:17:30] It’s an, um, a group of workplace strategists, mostly in the U S and UK and Europe, but also increasingly spread out across the world who are looking into new approaches. And right now what’s happening is that people within the, uh, Commercial real estate and design fields. And overall within workplace strategy are starting to revisit some of their assumptions.
[00:17:51] They’re starting to think about how do, um, we designed the environment to fit needs a workers, because if people don’t use those spaces, once they’re able to return, if people don’t use them, if they think, okay, so this doesn’t adding any value. So I can just work from home. Then that means that, um, the space itself.
[00:18:13] Won’t be used and that would mean that it would be subject potentially to being sold off. And so, um, there’s a lot of opportunity there right now for people to explore the future of work. And so what I’m doing right now is, um, I’m involved with an, um, a startup called a, not a startup, a software company called facility quest, which is.
[00:18:35] Exploring how, um, it software can, uh, address the future of work and COVID-19, so that’s what I’m, I’m helping them with. I’m also involved in some other conversations with some, um, Large reorganizations and it’s, um, really like my focus right now is all going on. I’m taking ownership, but being what an anthropologist is and not just saying, Oh, I can help you with that photography and quality of research, but showing and explaining what NF logical approach would be and how that would add value.
[00:19:07] So that’s kind of. Where I’m at, um, where I’m at the moment. That’s why I was excited to talk with you because I just think that, um, I’ve been involved in so workplace strategy conversations, but to actually talk with someone about applied anthropology is an absolute treasure. So thank you for adding me into this conversation.
[00:19:23] Matt Artz: [00:19:23] Great. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming on. So thanks for that great intro. I, you know, there’s a, there’s a lot to unpack there. Maybe first kind of going back to javelin. No, I think it’s maybe worth pointing out that you were you’re you were interested in sort of the neighborliness or, you know, sort of the built environment, but also it’s a platforms that there’s the UX play.
[00:19:41] Right. And so how, um, what was the challenges maybe in sort of navigating the online and offline life?
[00:19:49] Chris Diming: [00:19:49] Oh, that was, um, there was an interesting debate that, um, We had, and, um, that was focused on to what extent do we have people interacting offline or online and what kind of role would javelin or what OD, you know, play?
[00:20:07] And so, um, a challenge that we had was thinking about the, um, and designing for the interactions that. On one hand, would he have people continue to use the app, but not replace the in-person interaction that we were trying to spark? And so, I mean, that was one that was one of the big challenges. Um, and why in a way that we focused on that was.
[00:20:40] Thinking not just about what interactions can do. We want to spark, but what things are people are already doing and how can we add to those? And so, um, that’s where we utilized UX research. That’s why we utilize qualitative research specifically to observe how people were interacting into, um, learn more about how they perceive those interactions.
[00:21:06] And so that’s where, um, Our challenge, I think was in focusing more on specific things that we could do, but the way that we addressed that was actually through focusing more on the person through using qualitative research.
[00:21:23] Matt Artz: [00:21:23] So then that brings up an interesting point. Um, You know, sometimes we as business anthropologists, design, anthropologists, you know, whatever sort of identity you assume we oftentimes still are having to sort of sell, you know, our services and really kind of push for them in many ways.
[00:21:41] Um, there’s sort of like a quantitative bias over qualitative. And so when you were hired into that role, where are they hiring you to bring those. Skills or did you have to sell that internally? First?
[00:21:54] Chris Diming: [00:21:54] I, it was a constant process of selling. I think it goes for, I think that’s often how it goes. Um, I was originally hired as an anthropologist, but as more as someone who could lead all the different types of research we are doing from the more quantitative surveys on, um, that might be.
[00:22:14] Measuring how people interact or more quantitative surveys, more based on market research and perceptions. So I was looking at that and I was working with the data scientists, but we were also doing qualitative research. And so what I was always trying to do was making sure that not just at the beginning, when we were all kind of on the same page, but throughout the process that, um, Oh, it was always sticking up for anthropology.
[00:22:38] One thing I always learned was that you have to always keep selling yourself and not just, but not just selling yourself, but selling the value of anthropology and what you bring. Hmm.
[00:22:49] Matt Artz: [00:22:49] Yeah, very true. I find the same. And so. Um, you also mentioned in there that, you know, the pace at which you had to conduct research was very different than academic research.
[00:23:00] And so that, you know, that comes up often, it’s that’s by no means, uh, you know, most people going into it, I think at this point, realize that however, realizing it and still sort of adjusting to that and performing well in that environment are two different things. Right. And so how. Now, what did you do to compensate and deliver actionable results?
[00:23:20] As you said that you wanted
[00:23:22] Chris Diming: [00:23:22] to, uh, it was, uh, that was a process. So it, it involved a bunch of different things I had to even, I mean, Adjusting to timelines was something that I was comfortable doing because I knew that beforehand, um, I knew that going into an applied environment, the focus is on the project and its focus is on delivering results.
[00:23:43] So I knew that and I was comfortable with it. Um, but I think the biggest thing for me was adjusting the language that I was using and, um, the language, but then also I think the mindset. And so with the language that I was using, I mean, I was coming from. Traditional UK academia, which is still very theoretical.
[00:24:04] And I had to check my sentence structure. I had to check the format in which I was delivering information I had to, um, Make sure it was more visual because I was very focused on text, but when you’re within a traditional academic environment, that’s your existence. And so everyone is comfortable with it.
[00:24:23] And that’s your, what words do you refer to you? That’s your habitus? And so I had to break all of that and that was, I think my, uh, my struggle and to an extent, I mean, that’s something that I still have to do now is check to make sure I’m not going back into old, uh, academic mode and that I’m like monitoring myself to, um, And now the thing that I had to do was I had to go from the, uh, sort of being the individual researcher who does something and then distributes it to being the researcher.
[00:24:55] Who’s part of the team and, um, being an academia, it’s all on you. And I mean, that’s good because it forces you to put yourself out there. But on the other hand, um, It’s not that collaborative. And so you have to learn to be able to give and take. And that’s also something that I had to do and I had to learn as well.
[00:25:19] Um, and all of these things, they, um, I think they have led to things turning out for the better, because, um, I find that collaboration is just much more fulfilling now, but it is something that I had to deal with as well. So I mean, a bunch of people go through a transition in different ways. So that’s just.
[00:25:39] Two things that I had to go through.
[00:25:42] Matt Artz: [00:25:42] And so, you know, you mentioned collaborating and you mentioned selling, you’re sort of selling, you know, everything that you’re doing in a more visual way than texts, which is great because I oftentimes, you know, when people reach out for help, You know, transitioning to business anthropology or UX, whatever it may be.
[00:26:01] I oftentimes speak about, you know, upskilling in terms of like design basic design skills to sell your ideas visually. And so aside from collaboration and that ability to, to convey things, did, uh, visually, is there anything else you did to upscale, you know, any like sort of particular like tech skills or business skills that you went out and tried to acquire to, you know, to be a better suited for the environment?
[00:26:25] Chris Diming: [00:26:25] I think. Another way of upskilling that I’ve been, um, hearing, which isn’t that formal, but I think it’s very important too, is, um, learning through networking. And so, um, this has been also part of changing my mentality from being academic Chris, to applied Chris and, um, by networking, by reaching out to people on LinkedIn, through engaging in.
[00:26:54] Um, workplace evolutionaries and also just interacting with people in a very sort of intense environment startup. You learn more about what other people need from you and where you can fit in. And as part of that, you do, you gain these business skills in terms of selling yourself and how to not just sell yourself, but also to engage in foreign value propositions and, um, for other products.
[00:27:20] And so I think, um, for me at least like, uh, major, I haven’t gone to webinars and workplace strategy to learn more about how the processes are actually done in the field. But I think it does is important for that though. Is. Having one-on-one conversations with people in the field to learn about what they do.
[00:27:42] And so before you just launch into your spiel, you’re learning more about what they did and where they came in and the types of skills that they do, and also their perspectives and priorities. And for me, that’s as important as an ups at up-skilling tool as a science skills, because it’s all about engaging the perspective of the other person.
[00:28:05] Matt Artz: [00:28:05] Yeah, you a grade and you know, it, that I think is maybe a good jumping off point to talking about like, you know, sort of like the daily life of, you know, an anthropologist and business. And, um, one thing that, you know, may not be as clear to everybody who’s trying to enter is, is that we’re not just constantly doing research, right?
[00:28:23] We are. Oftentimes planning, research and conducting research or analyzing whatever it may be, but we do many other things, you know, stakeholder interviews kind of like, you’re just talking about project management type work. Right. There’s all kinds of stuff. So what, um, yeah, I appreciate that. You know, you’re sort of a.
[00:28:42] You know, freelancing, you know, running like, you know, kind of consulting, but what is your typical day or week or month or whatever it may be look like because it’s not all
[00:28:51] Chris Diming: [00:28:51] research. Uh, um, this upcoming month is going to be very, uh, intense because I’m starting to actually get myself off the ground with freelancing consulting now.
[00:29:02] And, um, so I can give you a picture of how last month looked, which was absolutely. Uh, crazy because traditionally the, uh, December is supposed to be a quiet month, right? At least that’s what I thought December would be a quiet month, but didn’t end up being very quiet. Um, I was doing, I was working on a couple of proposals and I was still meeting up with, um, Experts in the field.
[00:29:31] I was, uh, pairing and participating in, uh, webinars and conference, not necessarily conferences, but webinars and, um, virtual meetings, both within November going into December. And I actually, I started then it’s also planned the research that would happen in, um, that’s going to happen coming up in January and onward.
[00:29:56] So it was a very. I think what I would do is I would, um, sort of switch. And so over the previous week from, um, right before Christmas, I was there a combination of networking and stakeholder interviews, as we said, but also, um, working on. My own publication that I’m sort of creating on anthropology and how it can add to workplace strategy.
[00:30:29] And on the other hand, I’m then doing proposals, I’m done, um, participating in workplace evolutionaries and this is a bunch of, I would say much of it. Is business development, much of it is networking. And then the bulk of it is going to be proposal. So the coming month is going to be more research, but I can tell you a lot of networking is going to be happening too.
[00:30:56] And, um, yeah, it’s, it’s gotta be exciting, but I mean, there’s, I would say. Even extending back into, um, back into Java. And I ended up doing, um, interviews with potential, um, with external parties who might partner with, uh, with javelin. I ended up, um, talking to, um, Advisors potential advisors. And that was more business development kind of stuff.
[00:31:24] Uh, which, I mean, I was a researcher, so I got shoved into business development. Um, and it’s really a lot of stuff that happens. And I think that might just be a nature of the work and being part of a startup as you ended up taking on many different hats. So that’s just what I ended up doing. And that’s kind of the way that I see this month playing out as well.
[00:31:44] Matt Artz: [00:31:44] Yeah, thanks for sharing. You know, whether it’s a startup or, you know, a startup you’re working for your consultant freelance or whatever it may be. I, you know, one of the things that I think is true for probably many of us is that we are, again, kind of doing a lot of work that is not always research. I think it’s good to call that out because, uh, for anybody who’s interested in this line of work, you know, it’s, I think they need to be aware of that.
[00:32:06] But you mentioned in there, and you kind of mentioned a theme of this earlier, which is. No, like earlier with javelin, you were talking about sort of positioning and, you know, you didn’t there, you were just sort of, I guess the concept comes up to me about like a little bit about business strategy and that there’s, uh, whether that’s you sort of, you know, sort of positioning your own business, right?
[00:32:27] Whether that’s, you’re working with your clients. So aside from like research and what do you think your contribution to the projects is? And excluding, like maybe like project management type stuff, but more like what’s the actionable, tangible takeaways.
[00:32:44] Chris Diming: [00:32:44] I would say that I’m starting to focus more on this as well.
[00:32:49] So I’ll talk about where I view my contribution is, but then I’ll go back to applied anthropology and something that I’ve been focusing in on is how. Within workplace environments. How can I, um, not just explore what people are doing now and what they’ve done and, um, delve into meeting and what constitutes a meeting and go into company culture and what constitutes that, but what does all this mean for environments going forward?
[00:33:19] What opportunities are exposed through my research and, um, what. Sort of, uh, avenues, can we, uh, build upon to improve future environments? What, to me, the, um, what I’m starting to see my role as being more of an Explorer in the sense that I’m looking into a problem. And I’m trying to find, um, the ways that the business, whether it’s the design team or whether it’s, um, A tech company, ways that the business can add value.
[00:33:56] And so the way that I see myself as kind of like, I’m going into somewhere, I’m doing. Reconnaissance, if you will. And I’m trying to find some nuggets to bring back to the people I’m working with to say, okay, so this is all the problem, and this is where we can fit in. So that’s where I see most of my contributions.
[00:34:14] And I’m thinking that, um, this kind of goes back to anthropology as well. Anthropology often focuses on how culture emerges, right? I mean, in the past, I would say. So, um, since the sixties and seventies, we’re not just thinking more about the structures, but how does things emerge and how do you new forms of social life emerge from the context, as you’re talking about emergence, you’re talking about the future.
[00:34:40] You’re not just talking about the present or the past. We were talking about how the future is being created. And, um, this means that there is a. And opportunity for anthropologists to help people to envision ways ahead, especially in areas of crisis, like now to help them come up with new situations and new solutions and new solutions to, for creating a better products for helping a decision makers, make better decisions maybe, or helping them to at least see through the fog.
[00:35:09] And so that’s where I think, um, applied anthropology has real value too.
[00:35:16] Matt Artz: [00:35:16] Yeah, that’s interesting too, because, um, you know, there’s a very, um, I think maybe one thing that we share is, is an interest in, is in producing something actionable. And so, you know, I think design anthropology is, is very much concerned with that.
[00:35:32] And so how do you see design anthropology relating to your. To your goals and you know, why do you identify as a design anthropologist? And you know what, I guess, what is design anthropology to you? Um,
[00:35:47] Chris Diming: [00:35:47] I think you’ll start off broad and then I’ll narrow a bit. So, um, My interests are always kind of in different ways.
[00:35:55] I’ve always, I’ve been interested in tech and, and uh, virtual platforms, but I’m also interested in the built environment. And to me, a design approach that incorporates people, can it be done? Across all of that. Um, that to me, the central part is the mindset that the anthropologist brings. And so I identify as a designer anthropologists because I can, I see using that approach in multiple ways and I see the value of using it in different types of projects.
[00:36:23] Um, so that’s what a designer anthropology mindset means to me, it’s a. Way forward, it’s a set of tools, but it’s also a, a mindset that’s people centered and that, um, specifically acts a bit as a Pathfinder for figuring out ways forward for the people you’re working with and also for the project. Um, it’s a bit like a shepherd in the sense.
[00:36:51] And, um, so that’s kind of where I see myself. I, um, I sometimes go by user experience researcher, but I prefer design anthropologists because it’s broader and it fits the idea that you’re not just designing for the physical environment, but also the virtual environment. And
[00:37:13] Matt Artz: [00:37:13] so, you know, you mentioned previous to that, you mentioned emergence and, um, how do you, you know, as a.
[00:37:26] As a designing of apologists, how do you bring in theory into the work that you’re doing? You know, say for javelin, um, you know, does it, does it show up in your work? Does it show up in the workplace? You know, is it something you talk about? Is it something that informs you there’s?
[00:37:41] Chris Diming: [00:37:41] I think it’s, um, in the case of javelin, I mean, that was fascinating because I was looking, my background is as a Mediterranean anthropologist as I did my PhD research in Kosovo.
[00:37:52] And so. Uh, Mediterranean anthropology draws on people like Michael Hertzfeld who were looking at, um, how neighbors in places like, um, Like Athens or in Hurtsville it’s case in shepherds and Crete, um, how do they perform in front of other people? What sort of national discourses do their performances draw upon?
[00:38:15] And what’s produced what emerges from their performances. And so, um, I also have an interest in, uh, well, in rhetoric, going back to my PhD research specifically from, um, Michael critters in Durham. And, um, again, that’s all about immersion since. So rhetoric is according to Hertz. According to Korea, there is rhetoric.
[00:38:37] Is this a tool it’s sort of this edge of culture? It’s this force that creates social life. And so rhetoric. So culture being this combination concepts and practices, rhetoric is the force that brings those. Into existence. So your utterances, the concepts that you use when you speak, um, by doing all that, you ended up creating, creating new forms of discourses and new forms of social life, new forms of culture.
[00:39:06] Sure. And, uh, when I was working with javelin, that, where that played out was me focusing more on the. Performances is grew all of neighbors within the environment within that interactions they had. But then what did their interactions signify? And then what systems, what structured is relationships were built from that.
[00:39:31] And then I think if we’re talking about workplace and talking about workplace strategy, the, I still ended up going back to career there. I still ended up going back to Hertzfeld and all. So it’s a board to you because. We’re thinking about the space. What role does the space have as being a setting for social interactions?
[00:39:53] What, um, type different types of spaces are there? So what, um, what space within the office is more public? So we’re talking about, say an office and less about working from home for a second. So if we’re talking about a company in an office, there are some locations in this office, so it might be more public.
[00:40:10] That might be more and some that might be more private. Those might be more public would be perhaps in an open office type of setting where people can see you and you can see them. So it’s a bit more of a performance if you will. Um, your show, you’re performing in a certain way, which is acceptable for other people within this space.
[00:40:28] And then, um, wow. While you’re also doing your work and then, uh, in a more private space, like a meeting room, or maybe in. A little a deuce. We might be able to call someone but not be heard. That is, um, that would be seen. Yeah. Maybe, perhaps being more of a backstage. If you go back to Goffman, sort of being aware, sort of.
[00:40:51] You’re not seeing. And so you’re able to put in a whole bunch of work in order to prepare for the performances in public space. And so that’s a perspective that I’d bring is more from spatial or anthropology or from Gosman and more on the symbols and how they’re emerging. And if you’re looking at working from home, um, you have.
[00:41:14] An interesting dynamic where public and private are shifting, right? Like, so you’re within the home, which at one point would have been more private. Um, but where you are, is a bit of a public display because the people you work with can see you. And so some people end up tooling around their backgrounds a bit to make sure that their image is one that’s.
[00:41:36] Acceptable and gives off the impression that they want to give. They may also be adapting parts of their, um, their background and their room, if you will, to make, come off a good impression. But that’s an example of, um, the home transforming into a form of public space. And, um, I think it’s very important to keep all of these things in mind because where the person thinks they are, it has an effect on, um, How they work.
[00:42:05] It also has an effect on their wellbeing, because if you’re, um, if you believe that you’re in an area where you’re being observed, then you’re going to act in a certain way. And it. People may not those interactions towards you may not necessarily barely be favorable. And so all of these things have consequences and that’s where I think having a theoretically informed perspective on space and what space means can be particularly valuable.
[00:42:31] Um, and I think to segue back into, um, anthropology and theory and how that can be applied in applied anthropology. I think there’s a strong argument to make that, um, Anthological ethnography is distinguished by being theoretically informed. Right. And, um, there is it. When you’re doing ethnography as an applied anthropologist.
[00:42:58] Yes. I mean, you, you can’t go in with this in-depth literature review and because people aren’t going to read it, but you should still take that perspective when you’re doing your work is just what you do is you’re translating that into the value. For the project, you’re translating that into what it actually means.
[00:43:19] And I think that if a plight anthropologists or leaves a theory behind, I think that they’re losing a lot of what they bring.
[00:43:26] Matt Artz: [00:43:26] Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good point. What we do and how we approach is different than what we have to tell everybody necessarily. Right. We don’t have to share all of that, but we can use it to inform our work.
[00:43:36] So, yeah, no, I think what you’re talking about with sort of the, the private space, you know, our, our own home spaces, you’re sort of becoming public is pretty interesting. And, um, And how does that relate maybe to something you said earlier, you know, you said these days, you had, well, you had to learn how to sort of collaborate in back then that might’ve been actually in the workplace, but learning how to collaborate now online.
[00:43:57] Which you know, is typically happening via some screenshare or some tool, maybe like mirror where, or kind of in, and working together. But there’s a lot of interesting things happening in that space. And maybe that relates to some of the work you’re doing currently. Um, so yeah. Any thoughts on that? Uh, you know, in, in virtual collaboration,
[00:44:15] Chris Diming: [00:44:15] I, um, That was interesting for me because with, um, Java knowledge, we were collaborating virtually right from the get go.
[00:44:23] So I was, I’m kind of stuck. I got stuck into that. I’ll almost immediately and, um, was I’m pretty sure this was right before mural. This was around 2018, 2019. And so, um, Yeah, I, I, uh, got used to having to get used to, um, constant zoom calls and, um, I would say screen share is, and all that. I think what’s, um, important to keep in mind.
[00:44:56] And just something that I’ve been noticing is that the tools haven’t really been proliferating over the past two years. I mean, zoom has changed shape pretty drastically since when I started using it. And, uh, I think. That, so that there is an opportunity that’s that the technology is there to improve collaboration.
[00:45:17] Um, that’s also the challenge. And so there was a, uh, a study that came out from, um, Kate Lister and she runs global workplace analytics. This was a very big study and it was focused on remote working and where the opportunities were and where the challenges were. And so this is a kind of a. I mean things in this field have been evolving pretty quickly.
[00:45:41] And this was, I would say published in may. So it’s a little bit dated, but I think the insights are still there. And the big finding was that people felt that they’re able to do the work they needed to do, but they weren’t sure about how they were actually collaborating. And there are doubts within that, um, study.
[00:46:07] There were a science that collaboration itself suffers in the context of working from home. Um, and so the opportunity is there for us to create better tools and for us to refine the collaborative process virtually, um, I think that where a lot of this seems to be faltering and falling through. Is that we were essentially thrust into working from home and people were using what tools they had.
[00:46:37] They were improvising, which I mean makes a lot of sense. Um, but I think that a way that you can, that anthropologists can, um, make. Uh, some headway right now would be to help teams figure out what actually, what tools actually work for them. Cause I think we have a bunch of tools out right now. It was just the challenge is that they’re not necessarily being used effectively and that, um, maybe the right ones aren’t being used at all.
[00:47:05] And I think that’s where a lot of the challenge for collaborative working is right now in general. I think that, um, Looking at it from a, I would say an employee perspective of what would actually help them would go a long way. And it would go to resolving some of those gaps in terms of collaborative work at home versus in the office.
[00:47:28] Matt Artz: [00:47:28] And, you know, in the literature and forgive me, you know, I’m not falling like so much depth, the workplace literature, but is there, you know, from, well, from my perspective, I would see that, um, You know, the physical space would be great to get together occasionally for collaboration purposes. You know, like in my case, I’ve been working remote since 2016 and, um, for the vast majority of things, you know, I feel perfectly fine with that.
[00:47:55] We get together occasionally really to work through complex problems. Yeah, complex software problems. And that always proves to be beneficial just to get a number of people, key stakeholders in the room where we can sort of get the whiteboard, whatever may be, you know, working through things. And so is there a discussions of the physical space becoming, you know, maybe just about collaboration?
[00:48:16] Chris Diming: [00:48:16] Yeah. So, um, I think there is consensus now. Emerging that the workplace itself is going to be more of an ecosystem that would include virtual spaces, and that would include physical spaces. And within that physical space environment, you also might have a dispersed network. So you might have a central hub at the business would have its or the central hub that its job is to facilitate company culture.
[00:48:43] Its job is to facilitate collaboration. Then you might have other offices, they may be coworking spaces. They may be smaller, sort of. Facilities, but offices that happen around the edge of the, the, uh, hub. So for example, in New York, you might have a central hub in New York that people occasionally go to, but then you might have offices in the suburbs where the employees live and they may want to work there instead of going into the office because this whole working from home sort of thing that we’re in has really emphasized choice.
[00:49:16] Um, I think there was a strong argument in general. I think whether it’s a disperse network or not, is that there’s going to be more focus and stress on the physical office as being a place that would foster collaboration and especially for, um, Companies where, I mean, innovation is absolutely essential.
[00:49:40] Having an office that actually promotes collaboration would be essential because, I mean, if you can do most of your work from home and you go to an office that, I mean, it doesn’t really help the immediate rooms aren’t ranged in a useful way. The technology is not up to date then why would you be there?
[00:49:58] So I think that going forward, you’re going to see. Offices that have the tools and arrangements necessary to promote, um, the exchanges and collaborative interactions between people of different teams, but also between clients and, um, the company as well. So I think you’re going to see that. And I think you’re going to see within that more of a concern for employee wellbeing and health due to the stresses that we’re having right now on, um, Because of the pandemic on, um, social distancing, the emphasis of maintaining your distance from other people, but also.
[00:50:39] Increasing concern with mental health as well because of increased because, um, more literature has come out on that shows isolation among remote workers, it’s causing some issues. It might be that the amount of room or working rehab right now, isn’t going to be sustainable. And so future spaces would need to also promote inclusion, promote, um, connection.
[00:51:03] And that’s where I think. For many businesses, that’s where this is going to go ad. It kind of goes, the other point would be that at the space doesn’t promote it than because of her working from home. And because people can do their work anyway, it may not necessarily be needed anymore. And so they want to see some companies start to make decisions based on what they have, whether it’s working for them or not.
[00:51:31] So I think the real estate industry as a whole is going to be one to watch for, um, just for what’s being sold.
[00:51:39] Matt Artz: [00:51:39] Yeah, I great. And, um, so that’s all really interesting I, from that I’d like to maybe pivot and, um, maybe just sort of get into some suggestions that you might have for, for others looking to get into this.
[00:51:49] But one last thing before that, um, you know, do you, I’d like to hear about, you know, say when you were with javelin or what you’re doing now, I appreciate that. Like in January I’ve been doing research and so this might apply more to after that, but what do you do. To not necessarily sell anthropology, like to get the job, but to sell the insights that come out of it.
[00:52:12] Um, because they too need to be sold. Right. Some people hear them, you know, you present them, however you choose to present them, but then they may not be acted on. So what do you do to sell your findings? Uh, and do you find it to be effective? Like have you tried a few things? Is something more effective than others?
[00:52:30] Chris Diming: [00:52:30] I would say. Um, just. In general. Um, and also based on my experiences with javelin, I think something that helps is to be more interactive. And, um, to me, I mean, I can do presentations, but. If it’s just you or me speaking for about an hour, they won’t necessarily fit in. I mean, I’m also, I’m one of those people that gets more from interactions to discussions then presentations, because I’ll be like, okay, well, I can just read this.
[00:53:07] Um, I think that’s something that people need to keep in mind is that, um, To just present something in something in text form is not going to work because it had been Saudi princes have very finite amounts of time. Won’t be able to read all of it. Also, even if you come up with an engaging visual presentation, um, even if you present it, that may not work either because.
[00:53:33] Some vital piece of information can slip through the cracks probably around, I would say 10, 15 minutes, 20 minute, 30 minute, Mark things start to go. Right. And so, um, but something I’ve noticed, which is very helpful is. To have maybe less of a formal presentation and more of a fluid interaction where people can jump in and ask questions.
[00:54:01] And on the discussion flows on from there, it’s one where you’re interacting freely with the design team, with the stakeholders. And then, um, from there emerges a consensus for moving forward. And I think that. I mean, this is kind of, is based on the experience I had with workplace evolutionaries back in December where another anthropologist and I presented what the value of anthropology could be for workplace strategy, but we did it within a discussion that, um, was very freeform.
[00:54:35] It wasn’t just. Presenting as if it was just presenting. I knew that I would be seen as being a lecturer or an academic and that just wouldn’t go well. So, um, I think having a one way to try to do more in the future is having free form discussions that are, but are sort of designed in such a way where stakeholders and people who might be interested can actually engage with you because I think what’s absolutely essential is when you’re going through a project is.
[00:55:05] That you’re answering the questions that people actually have, that you’re not providing answers to questions that people don’t have. Um, and so that’s kind of where I see it going. I see much, I see a lot of value in workshops and in being in interactive discussions where. You’re providing insights, but where solutions are actually being generated through a group of people, rather than it being just you.
[00:55:36] So that’s kind of where I see my engagements moving forward.
[00:55:44] Matt Artz: [00:55:44] Right. And how will you gauge, you know, the outcome of that, both like your own performance, if you will, and you know, the outcome of the project,
[00:55:52] Chris Diming: [00:55:52] I think that’s where constant engagement is important. And so, um, I see potential and anthropologists, of course, being able to jump in and parachute and leave.
[00:56:03] I mean, that’s the way that consultants ought to not create, but I think that it’s essential to continue your engagement straight through. And so another thing that I do and that I imagine other people also do as a form of, I guess you call it relationship work. We are constantly checking in with people.
[00:56:25] On the team you’re working with to figure out what it is they need, but also what they think about it. And what other questions can you answer? And then from the previous findings and from how you’re interpreting, interpreting the data, what can we do to build on it? So I think it’s not enough just to do one presentation or one workshop.
[00:56:47] You have to always keep engaging.
[00:56:50] Matt Artz: [00:56:50] Sure. And so you mentioned the, you know, the sort of pitch you’re putting together with a colleague. Um, so how would you position or sort of sell anthropology and the business space, you know, like what do you, for any hiring managers, potential clients, whatever. Maybe like, you know, what, what is the value that we bring?
[00:57:07] Everything else summarized?
[00:57:10] Chris Diming: [00:57:10] I liked the metaphor of culture being an iceberg. This is not a metaphor that I came up with. This is what my colleague Claire Raul came up with. So just, uh, before I, uh, I take, before I run with a metaphor, just to, just to clarify that, but, um, the. Idea of culture being an iceberg is that is very useful because it clarifies that culture itself is all encompassing and that it is beneath what you see.
[00:57:38] But it’s a very visual one because people get it. Okay. Yeah. So culture drives everything. It’s not something that you actually see it’s invisible, but it’s really important. And I think that being able to. Understand and explore that iceberg and figure out where it actually is and what its dimensions are and what it’s composed of.
[00:58:01] I think that’s a very vital strength for Mo for, well, my own work, because I’m thinking about culture within the context of the workplace, but you can also think about it within, um, Any type of setting, like if you’re thinking about a group of gamers and you’re coming up with a game, then you’re thinking about gamer culture, and you’re thinking about, um, specifically, what kind of culture do the people who play that game have, for example, um, and you’re thinking about what drives it and you’re thinking about what sorts of behaviors and concepts I can pose that culture, how they emerge, and then what effect do they have on the way that people play the game and, um, I think that being able to sell the, being able to focus on the iceberg and explore it as a key asset, logical strength.
[00:58:51] And so I’ve been running with the iceberg metaphor ever since, and I’ve found it to be useful and resonant. I do think that it’s not enough for anthropologists to be able to focus on what’s happening now. And thanks for the culture what’s happening now, you have to also be able to. Expose opportunities for making a better product.
[00:59:15] You need to sell yourself as having insights into the future and be able to, you’re not predicting the future, but to be able to imagine new possibilities that can then be built upon by you and the people you’re working with. And I think that’s a key archeological strength, and I think that’s, um, one where.
[00:59:39] We as anthropologists are well-suited because we have the perspective, that’s already there for thinking about future opportunities and we just have to exercise it.
[00:59:50] Matt Artz: [00:59:50] Great. So to use that, I like that. And to maybe use that to pivot. So thinking about the future, what would you recommend to, you know, whether it’s a student who wants to move into, you know, the world of, you know, applying anthropology and business or.
[01:00:05] No, like an early career who maybe, you know, wants to grow their career over time. Right. Or like, wait, you know, what, what w what recommendations would you give, whether that’s skills or just maybe, you know, like knowledge, you know, how to position themselves, how to brand themselves, whatever it may be.
[01:00:23] Chris Diming: [01:00:23] There’s a lot there to, to go into. Um, so I think I would start with something that I’ve just learned for. Myself and then to maybe go into upskilling later. But, um, I think that to speak from my own experience, that someone who is still to an extent going through this would be. Maybe more helpful. So something that I’ve learned recently for myself is the importance of taking ownership and being an anthropologist, because I said earlier, it’s not enough right now to see that you can help the quality of research because a lot of people do qualitative research and a lot of people say they do ethnography.
[01:01:03] And whether they actually do ethnography or not is kind of beside the point because you have to justify yourself because, um, Well, that’s, you’re talking about certain industries and even in UX research and tech, to an extent you have to show where, what you can bring as an anthropologist, and you have to be able to take ownership of who you are as an anthropologist and what you bring as an anthropologist and what, um, benefits, uh, your approach has for the people you’re working with.
[01:01:34] And you have to be able to do all of this. Without trying to come in as some kind of savior or as someone who can do all the things, because, um, again, like there are people who are going to be working with regardless. And even if they have been doing us, not graffiti that they call ethnography or not, they think they can do it.
[01:01:57] And what you need to do is you need to show through your actions and YouTube. Explain clearly what your value is and what you can do. And so that involves taking ownership of yourself as an anthropologist. You’re not going in there just to say, Oh, I can help you as quality tailored research, please hire me.
[01:02:16] No, you’re going to say that you can do the qualitative research in this way. It will have this effect and you’ll go through insights in collaboration. With other people on the team, that’s something that I’ve started to do. And I think that, um, along with taking ownership, what that means is that you’re not just looking, waiting for an opportunity to come.
[01:02:36] You’re also putting yourself out there and you’re expanding to other people in certain forums where like LinkedIn, or maybe in podcasts or in publications, wherever you’re clearly showing what you’re clearly trying to explain what you can do because. Even if you don’t really know at first you will refine that proposition and you will learn more every time.
[01:02:59] But the important thing is that you’re putting yourself out there. And I think, um, because I mean, applying to anthropology is still, it is a thing, but it’s more present in some business spaces than others. And I think that there is an opportunity to bring it into maybe promotional real estate, or if I’m not talking about my own circumstances, maybe.
[01:03:19] HR, uh, maybe in different types of urban planning, maybe, I don’t know, um, counseling, maybe more in nonprofits or community organizing and it is already, I think there is a lot of space there, there isn’t a lot of opportunity depending on what you’re interested in. Um, but, or to get there, do you really need to get comfortable with taking ownership of being anthropologist?
[01:03:44] Not just. You can’t, um, it’s not enough to go into applied anthropology because she wants to get a job. It’s you have to be able to explain what an asphalt applied anthropology is applied anthropologist is, and you have to be able to articulate where it is clearly, what it can do. Um, so that would be one thing.
[01:04:03] The, another thing that I’ve started to do well, that I’ve been doing for awhile is that. Um, this networking and getting to know professionals in the field that you’re trying to. Enter because, I mean, if you suddenly start talking about the value of anthropology and a field that you haven’t really been in, it is docking necessarily going to go well, and you need to learn how people within that field speak and you need to learn what’s important to them.
[01:04:31] So, I mean, this is going back to stakeholder interviews and the science, but it’s also taking an astrological. Approach to learning the perspectives and the sort of the habits and the concepts behind the people you’re going to be working with. And you charge the way you do that is through reading about the field, but it’s also through, um, just engaging in conversations.
[01:04:50] And so those are two important things to keep in mind. Um, I think if there are many of course job posts for. And that mentioned anthropology, but, um, I think if you only focus on them and if you’re very job post focused and I think you’re missing a lot of the opportunity and the danger is that you’ll be putting a lot of effort into applications that may not come back and by relying on job applications, you’re again, you’re focusing more on, um, kind of waiting for something to come to you rather than putting yourself forward.
[01:05:30] Matt Artz: [01:05:30] Yeah. Yeah. Great tips. All right, Chris. Um, well I think that was, that was really helpful for everybody. I learned, I enjoyed learning more about what you’re doing and I would love to check back in and, uh, you know, in a year or so, and kind of hear how everything’s evolving in the workplace. Hopefully post
[01:05:45] Chris Diming: [01:05:45] COVID at that point.
[01:05:46] Oh, it’ll be an interesting time. I’m sure. I’d love to have the conversation done too. I think, uh, almost a good. Some are at before and after if you will. Yeah,
[01:05:56] Matt Artz: [01:05:56] that’d be great. So, um, you know, to wrap up anything you want to plug anything, you know, any projects that you’re working on that particularly interested you or, you know, where can people find you?
[01:06:06] Chris Diming: [01:06:06] Well, um, the things I’m involved right now are emerging or in the very beginning stage. Um, so I think to learn more, the easiest thing to do would be to follow me on, um, on. My LinkedIn said, if anyone wants to reach out, feel free to find me. And, um, I’ve, I’m very, I’m always very open to conversations with people in the workplace strategy field, but also applied anthropologist of any Stripe and students to, um, my profile would be Chris dimming, comma, PhD.
[01:06:43] Matt Artz: [01:06:43] Great. Well, thanks for, uh, extending that offer to everybody and, uh, I should add that’s how we connected. So that’s great. All right. Well, Chris, thanks very
[01:06:52] Chris Diming: [01:06:52] much. Appreciate it. Well, thank you, Matt. I hope you have a great day and thanks again for reaching out to me. I enjoyed our conversation.
[01:06:59] Matt Artz: [01:06:59] Thank you for listening to the Anthropology in business.
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